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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 10
Laptop Make: HP
Model: DV9576ea
Graphics Card: 8600M GS
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 900
Date Purchased: 09 Sep 2007
Date Failed: 09 May 2010
I have been using this site as an invaluable source of information since my laptopr failed in June this year, Paul has provided an engineer's report etc and PC World have made me an offer so far for £590 (broken down as £400 for the laptop, £65 for the report, £70 for court issue and £55 expenses for a hard drive I purchased to back my document up when they began rapidly failing). Quick recap:

The laptop is an HP dv9500 series of some kind and purchased in September 2007, failed June 2010 so about 2.5 years of use. Cost new was £899 from PC World.

Store (Birkenhead PC World) fobbed me off, email contact requested an engineer's report, this produced a low offer which was then improved to £515 in total. I refused and began proceedings at which point that contact ended as he was not legally qualified. Due to their acknowledgement of service there are now about 13 days left before I can obtain judgement by default. My claim was filed for a total of £1219.98

Today I received two letters from their legal department. These worry me slightly as some of their discussion of their defence appears more sophisticated than I have seen on previous case reports on here. In essence, they begin by admitting liability and stating they wish to resolve it amicably. They refer to the sale of goods act and that acceptance of goods is deemed to take place within days to weeks and that due to this I have lost the right to reject the laptop and recover the purchase price. This paragraph worries me the most, as it would imply a more clear cut approach to denying me a refund of the full purchase price rather than just talking about my already having some usage.

They then talk about damages and state that they can arrange for a repair to be undertaken by Hewlett Packard themselves as the engineer's report provides no evidence that a repair will not be long lasting. They then state that while they canot guarantee the motherboard will be free from defects, they guarantee that I will still be able to pursue my claim under statutory rights should it fail at a later date.

The alternative is that damages be assessed on use of the laptop, lots of justification of this and arrival at a price of £400 for it. They then request clarification for some of my damages claims e.g. my time etc and a further breakdown of the exact claim of the damages.

If anyone has any previous experience of letters like this, i'd appreciate hearing your experiences, and an advice would be useful.

I have replied to their offer stating that I would accept £650 out of court to end the matter but they have firmly refused to increase from £590. My inclination is to continue the case to its end, with the hope that they pull out a few days before the court date or don't turn up but the novel approach on these letters worries me slightly.

Cheers
Andrew


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:16 pm
Posts: 421
Laptop Make: HP
Model: G6000
Graphics Card: Other
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 399
Date Purchased: 01 Mar 2007
Date Failed: 25 Sep 2009
Andrew,

They've tried that "acceptance of goods" bit before and always failed. At the end of the day you were not aware that the laptop was inherently faulty - if you had been then I'm sure that you wouldn't have accepted them.

You have started your claim as soon as you became aware of the inherent defect so there is no way that that type of defence will stand up in court.

With regards to the repair - the fact that they won't guarantee the replacement board to be free from the defect is more than enough of a reason to reject it. Whilst County Court judgments don't set precedents there has been more than one occasion where the District Judge has agreed with this statement (see the highlighted success currently at the top of each page for an example of this).

On a rough calculation I've worked out that a court would probably award you £420 for your laptop plus expenses so their offer isn't that far off. If your expenses are around the £170 mark then I would seriously consider accepting the £590 offer.

_________________
Please note: I am not legally qualified and therefore any postings I make are just my own personal opinion based on my experience of working for a number of years at a busy County Court.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:54 pm
Posts: 6429
Graphics Card: Other
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 0
Hello Andrew and welcome to our forum.

Sorry to hear of the problems you have been experiencing with your laptop.

Firstly, as Ciderboy quite rightly states, PC World have tried the old "acceptance of goods" before and ended up with egg on their faces - on more than one occasion.

Time and time again they try to defend what is an indefensible position and time and time again they lose.

You would think that someone at planet DSG would get the message and simply pay up without the need to make their customers drag them kicking and screaming through the courts.

You should not worry in the slightest about the contents of their letters as at the end of the day the judges have always ruled in the customers favour in these situations.

The amount that they have offered is not far from what a judge would award as a minimum if you were to proceed to court.

It is up to you if you want to continue to court, you may get a little more, you may not, it is all down to the judge on the day.

I personally would settle with them on condition they meet with what the courts would allow, which would be £450 for your laptop plus expenses.

If they refuse to increase their offer to the minimum that I would continue your action against them.

These companies need to be shown that customers will not be bullied into accepting their offers.

If you have any questions or if you need any advice then please let me know.

Good luck and best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

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=======================================================
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Why you should not accept a repair
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What is the Nvidia Defect?
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Do you need an engineers report?
=======================================================


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Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:15 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 10
Laptop Make: HP
Model: DV9576ea
Graphics Card: 8600M GS
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 900
Date Purchased: 09 Sep 2007
Date Failed: 09 May 2010
Hi

Thanks for the replies and advice, the forum has been very useful towards my current research. I have seen multiple success stories where it has actually gone to court/been settled days before and the judge has awarded the full amount, is this the norm or is it more normal for the judge to take into account depreciation?

My current leaning is towards continuing the suit in the hope that they will either settle just before or not turn up, as seems to be usual. Has there been any cases known to the forum of a judge awarding a depreciated amount (although i'm well aware of this being a distinct possibility, I haven't been able to find an example on here). Also, there was passing mention of one person losing in court, do you have any more details?

I am quite looking forward to their defence now, in the hope that it will be a carbon copy of every other one here so far. I will post details when available.

Cheers
Andrew


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:09 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:26 am
Posts: 4
Model: DV9574ea
Graphics Card: 8600M GS
Purchased From: Direct From Manufacturer
Amount Paid: 999
Date Purchased: 09 Sep 2007
Date Failed: 03 Mar 2009
Usage deduction; look here, bottom of page.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 10
Laptop Make: HP
Model: DV9576ea
Graphics Card: 8600M GS
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 900
Date Purchased: 09 Sep 2007
Date Failed: 09 May 2010
Thanks, the whole thread is very useful and it's nice to see more details of exactly how a court case went. I think I will still be continuing with my court action and have sent the relevant people a letter rebutting part of their previous letter as well as stating again in writing what I would like to give up the court case.

Cheers
Andrew


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 10
Laptop Make: HP
Model: DV9576ea
Graphics Card: 8600M GS
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 900
Date Purchased: 09 Sep 2007
Date Failed: 09 May 2010
I have now received their defence and am glad to see that it pretty much mirrors other similar defences on here, essentially being worthless and missing the point on several occasions. There is a slight worry in that they 'aver' that their proper name is DSG Retail Limited, not DSG International. In some cases this could be a pertinent point as issuing the service to the correct people is pretty important! However, I reckon this is a moot point since they have the same address in Companies House register and I think DSG Retail is a wholly owned subsidiary of DSGi. I don't think a judge will hold it against me, a layman, to have slightly misunderstood their company structure when its clear the service will go to the same place and be dealt with by the same people.

I will post some more details of the defence when I have time.

Following this I have completed my allocation questionnaire and returned this, now just waiting on a court date to appear. Prior to this I sent the legal person I am dealing with a letter detailing my offer and indicating that I would accept £890 and pointing out that her defence of me having 'accepted' the item is irrelevant at best, there has been no reply as yet.

I will keep you updated on how things go, hopefully the court date will be soon and convenient (thought by previous indications it could be next spring!)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 10
Laptop Make: HP
Model: DV9576ea
Graphics Card: 8600M GS
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 900
Date Purchased: 09 Sep 2007
Date Failed: 09 May 2010
well, they didn't even reply to my offer of settlement at £890 (the full amount claimed through the county court is £1289.99 currently).

Our mediation appointment is booked for early tomorrow morning and I will see how it goes and update you. We have been corresponding by letter and they have said little apart from quoting S35 of the sale of goods act and saying that I 'accepted' the laptop as I kept it for a few days after purchase without contacting them.

I have prepared a quick document of my case ready for the appointment tomorrow and this is shown below.

Quote:
Mediation Information

Background
• Computer purchased 01/11/2007 for £899.99 from PC World Birkenhead
• In early May 2010 the computer started showing signs of failure, notably shutting down unexpectedly.
• This fault was traced to the computer’s hardware, the graphics card or GPU. Following this, it failed completely and would not even start up, rendering it useless.
• Internet search revealed this as an extremely common fault, with all graphics cards of a particular model (which included mine) being vulnerable, due to a manufacturing fault where the material used in attaching the graphics card to the motherboard being in appropriate and prone to early failure due to heat stress.
• NVIDIA themselves have admitted the fault and set aside large funds for resolution of the problem.
• The computer was sent to an expert who tested the computer and verified that the fault I was experiencing was the one aforementioned, and a result of a manufacturing defect.

• Initial contact with PC World was through their store, whereby they directed me to a non-existent email address for customer services.
• After using several methods of contact, I began contact with one of their representatives. They advised me regarding obtaining an engineer’s report etc during the initial contact.
• Once this had been obtained, they admitted responsibility for taking care of the fault and made an offer based on depreciation of £450 plus the cost of the expert’s report.
• They based this on a linear depreciation of the laptop over an expected lifespan of 5 years.
• This offer did not include anything regarding damages, time or trouble etc.
• I refused this offer as I did not feel that depreciation of a laptop is a linear exercise, nor do I agree that depreciation should be taken into account as to me, the worth of the laptop is intrinsic and is worth £900 to me until the day it goes into the bin.
• In addition, their offer would not be sufficient to even replace the laptop with one of similar specification.

• I proceeded with a small claims settlement on this basis.
• Initial communications indicated they would effectively increase their offer by £5.

• Their case is based on acceptance and rejection of goods under section 35 of the sale of goods act and maintain that since I had kept the laptop for more than a few days, I had been deemed to have accepted it.
• My case is that this is not relevant since I am not claiming under rejection of the laptop but under breach of contract for supply of goods which had an inherent fault.
• My case is based on the fact that the goods were faulty when supplied and this gives me recourse to a full refund or replacement. The expected life of the laptop is in the region of 5-7 years and this is a very premature failure.
• Despite my indication by telephone that I would accept a modest increase in an offer to something in the region of £650 in total (including small claims issue fees etc), they refused to modify their offer. As a result, I proceeded with small claims proceedings.

• Further to continuing proceedings, I stated that I was willing to accept a settlement of £890.
• Although I do not believe that their idea of depreciation costs is at all correct or necessary, I am happy to compromise and this figure represented a moderate depreciation of £200, plus refund of some of my costs.
• They did not reply to this offer of settlement.

• In addition to the claim for a full refund of the laptop cost, I have included damages, as allowed by the sale of goods act. This has included time, car depreciation costs and other sundries, bringing my claim through the small claims court to £1289.99. Further to our correspondence, I have agreed to remove one part of my claim (£55) and agreed to reduce the amount claimed for car mileage.
• I feel this reflects an open attitude on my part to negotiate and modify my claim.

• For my part, I have repeatedly made reasonable offers of settlement along the way to avoid proceeding to court and minimise the cost to both sides. They have refused to consider increasing their offer and in some cases have not even responded and continue to state that I have ‘accepted the laptop’ and thus have no right to a refund, despite the fact that it was faulty at the time of purchase and condemned to an early failure. For their part, they have offered a sum which would not even cover the cost of replacing the faulty goods, never mind my time and effort in solving this problem. Their decision to increase their offer by £5 is little short of insulting.
• As a result, if I proceed to court I will still be claiming the full amount.

• While county courts do not take precedents from other county courts, several cases of an identical nature to mine have been settled in full in the claimant’s favour.


I will probably tell the mediator that I would accept £900 as a settlement for the cost of the laptop, despite the claim being for £1289. I can honestly say I have done my best to be reasonable throughout, with my initial offers being around £600 all in! This forum has been invaluable for help, thanks!, wish me luck and hope that the mediator decides in my favour! :)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Site Admin

Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 6:54 pm
Posts: 6429
Graphics Card: Other
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 0
Hello Andrew,

Quote:
wish me luck and hope that the mediator decides in my favour!


Good luck Andrew, the mediator will not make any decisions, just assist you and the retailer to come to an agreement. If an agreement cannot be reached then he or she will simply refer it back to the judge for a hearing.

The mediators are usually laypeople with little to no legal knowledge so it may be worth your while printing off a copy of the Sale Of Goods Act and highlighting the relevant parts.

Fingers crossed for you.

Best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

_________________
=======================================================
Calculate the minimum refund that you would be entitled to.
FAQ's
Why you should not accept a repair
Links to evidence
What is the Nvidia Defect?
Step by step help to getting a refund
Do you need an engineers report?
=======================================================


If you like what you see on this forum and would like to help then please post links to this forum in other forums or blogs. The more people we can help the better.


Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:16 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:04 pm
Posts: 10
Laptop Make: HP
Model: DV9576ea
Graphics Card: 8600M GS
Purchased From: High Street Store
Amount Paid: 900
Date Purchased: 09 Sep 2007
Date Failed: 09 May 2010
Well, the appointment went pretty well, the mediator was helpful etc. I was a little surprised by how bound they were, they can't even pass judgement on basic right/wrong matters of law but just try to help you settle somewhere. Bit useless in these circumstances really as our disagreement is pretty set in stone and we have already had extensive communications.

Unfortunately DSG's representative would not under any circumstances increase the offer, staying at about £400 for the replacement plus some costs. I tried to demonstrate a willingness to negotiate by dropping my offer a little but they weren't having it.

Next step is the court case i suppose, the date is set for 28th January :roll:


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