The Nvidia Defect Forum

Hello

I found this site yesterday after having the second of two identical spec Dell XPS M1330 laptops develop the vertical lines of death within weeks of each other. Sadly, both are out of warranty (even the worldwide 12 month warranty extension Dell announced a while back). They were purchased a few weeks apart in early-mid 2008 by the old CEO of my (very small) company.

After doing some preliminary research, I spoke with Dell yesterday and triumphantly mentioned my rights under the Sale of Goods Act. In reply, the support guy politely stated that it doesn't apply because it was a business transaction.

I've now done some more research and I don't think it's as simple as that. The Sale of Goods Act does apply, but because it's a business transaction, it's possible for Dell to have contracted out of certain terms in a way they can't do for consumers.

I haven't yet managed to dig up the documents from the time we were sold these laptops but I'm reasonably sure they will have voided as many of the "fit for purpose" (etc) parts of the Act as legally possible for business to business transactions.

I think business buyers need to rely on the parts of the SOGA that they can't contract out of. My preliminary research suggests one needs to find some express or implied warranty in the original documentation or advertising, which has been breached by them providing a faulty graphics chip. The remedy for a breach of warranty is damages, so even if successful I wouldn't necessarily expect a free repair or replacement.

Incidentally, I spoke with consumer direct and they weren't that hopeful of a positive outcome due to the difficulty in showing that Dell had warranted a specific performance/quality, and then proving they didn't meet it. I'm going to guess that Dell's documentation has a blanket clause about there being no express or implied warranty under the contract for sale.

If anyone's been through this, can you please post your experiences? It seems crazy to me that a publicly admitted flaw like this can be completely sidestepped just because the transaction was with a company rather than a consumer.

If it turns out there are any options worth pursuing, 'd be happy to work with others in a similar position to see whether we can get any justice for business purchasers.

Incidentally, the next "business" laptop I buy will be in my name and paid for by my own credit card. It also won't be from Dell, which is a shame for them given the number of laptops we've bought from them over the years.

Thanks
Jack

Hello Jack and welcome to our forum.

Sorry to hear of the problems you have been experiencing with your laptop.

I agree with you that it is absolutely scandalous that a company can wriggle out of its legal obligations purely because you are a business customer.

I have seen quite a number of customers in your position and who have come up against a dead end as far as the retailer is concerned.

I am going to take some legal advice on this but I am sure there are other avenues that can be explored.

I would say that fraudulent concealment would be a good place to start.

The legal definition of fraudulent concealment is:-



I am not sure if this is applicable in the UK so I am going to ask my lawyer friend if such an action could be brought in the UK small claims courts.

If so then bingo!

I will let you know tomorrow.

Best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

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Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.

Thanks Paul, I'd be interested to learn what you discover.

In the interim, I've fired off an email to the support guy who sent me an email yesterday after my discussion with him, quoting £379 + VAT (each!) to repair the laptops. When I first spoke with him, he mentioned that if I got both done at once, he might be able to reduce the cost "slightly".

When I pointed out that I could buy a new laptop for the price being quoted, he said "I don't think so sir. Even though these are a couple of years old they are still quite a high specification and you wouldn't get one as good for that amount".

So "high specification" apparently doesn't include a functional motherboard and graphics processor arrangement!

In my email, I cited the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 at him. I didn't go into detail, but in essence, there may be some restrictions on the extent to which they can disclaim liability under the SGA, depending on the circumstances.

I doubt they'll respond positively, but I've made what I think is a fair offer and will wait to see what (if anything) he says in reply before I take things further.

And I *will* be taking things further, as I think there's an interesting principle at stake here.

Thanks again
Jack

I just got off the phone to a very polite customer services manager who was all light and sunshine while he told me that they wouldn't offer even a penny's discount on the full retail repair cost.

He told me that if I wanted to take things further I should put my complaint in writing to head office. However, he also said that they'd send such a letter to him and in the absence of further information he would simply put the same reply in writing!

In that case, I suggested it would be simpler to go straight to legal proceedings. I asked him to put his answer in writing so I could avoid having to go through a meaningless round of discussion with him and he agreed to email me.

Finally, he said that if there were legal statements or documentary evidence in our next round of communication with them, they'd get their solicitors involved.

I'll let you know if I get an email from him.

My next step is to look into the case-law surrounding the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 to see what potential approaches it offers. I think the main advantage I have is the general presumption in favour of the customer (even if it's a business customer) where there is a significant disparity in power. The fact that Dell's contract of sale is a standard one with no ability to negotiate as an equal certainly moves the balance in my favour.

Incidentally, I don't think much joy will be had with an allegation of fraud or misrepresentation. The burden for proving those is actually quite high. At this stage, I think the best option is to show that completely excluding all terms relating to fitness for purpose etc under the SGA is unreasonable given all the circumstances.

If I come up with anything interesting I'll post back.

cheers
Jack

I received a reply from Dell, which I've set out below my signature.

Unsurprisingly, it's a form letter that ignores most of what I've told them, such as:
- it's not about one laptop, it's about two (both service tags have been given to them)
- there is an extended warranty in relation to this specific issue, which expired on 6 February 2010, not in February 2009

They've also characterised this as a warranty issue when I've repeatedly said I'm relying on the SGA (etc) and not their warranty.

Their boilerplate commitment-to-the-client feel-good stuff - 80% of the letter - would be hilarious if it wasn't so insulting.

In any event, I don't have time to do anything else on this today or tomorrow but I'll post updates as they happen.

cheers
Jack
--------
(From Dell)

I am writing in response to your complaint with regard to your Dell system tag <xxx>.

Firstly, we would like to thank you for taking the time to make us aware of your experience.

As a company we pride ourselves in the level of service we deliver and take matters such as this very seriously. We are constantly looking for ways to improve our standards of service and support, and any feedback we receive which helps us achieve this is most welcome.

We regret the difficulties you have experienced in this matter and we appreciate the co‐operation you have extended in allowing Dell to address this matter.

After fully investigating the issues you have encountered, Dell has come to the following conclusion. Your Dell XPS M1330 System is no longer under warranty. The warranty you purchased for this system under the order number 021770006 (1 Year NBD (Next Business Day)) has expired on 06‐02‐2009. As a result we regret to state that we would not be able to proceed with replacement of faulty parts on this occasion.

I regret that this may come as a disappointment to you and trust that you will understand Dell’s position on the matter.

We acknowledge your rights as a Consumer. Once again we want to assure you of our total commitment to your satisfaction with our services and products, and apologize for not meeting up to your expectations on this occasion.

Forgive me if I am barking up the wrong tree here ...........

But does buying with a credit card as a business rather than an individual make any difference to the laws regarding refunds ect ?

Because if not then pursuing your card / bank may be a better option

Ralph

Hello Jack,



I couldn't agree with you more.

What an absolutely insulting reply. The warranty status is absolutely irrelevant as your laptop is inherently defective.

I hate the way these retailers think they can ride roughshod over their customers rights.

I agree with Ralphy regarding the credit card. Have you spoken to the credit card company yet?

If you do end up getting nowhere with Dell then the card company would be the next best option, though I would hate to see Dell wriggle off the hook.

Best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

_________________
=======================================================
Calculate the minimum refund that you would be entitled to.
FAQ's
Why you should not accept a repair
Links to evidence
What is the Nvidia Defect?
Step by step help to getting a refund
Do you need an engineers report?
=======================================================

If you like what you see on this forum and would like to help then please post links to this forum in other forums or blogs. The more people we can help the better.


Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.

I don't know whether a business credit card purchase of a business machine is covered under the consumer credit act (or whatever it's called).

However, there's a lot of stuff in the Unfair Contract Terms Act that can probably help me.

Either way, it's going to be huge chore to find all the necessary info, as I didn't make the purchase and the person who did has left the company.

Once I've gone through it all, I'll let you know what I find out. My current preference is to force Dell to pay if I can. I'd rather them than the credit card people.

cheers
Jack

Jack / lapcure,

I'm in the same boat. Did either of you find any information that may be useful in getting some kind of damages/refund/replacement?

Like you, I find it hard to believe we're completely out of luck.

Hello Stormeagle and welcome to our forum.

To be honest I have been so busy I didn't get chance to chase this up.

I will get on to it this week and will post an update here as soon as I have some information.

Best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

_________________
=======================================================
Calculate the minimum refund that you would be entitled to.
FAQ's
Why you should not accept a repair
Links to evidence
What is the Nvidia Defect?
Step by step help to getting a refund
Do you need an engineers report?
=======================================================

If you like what you see on this forum and would like to help then please post links to this forum in other forums or blogs. The more people we can help the better.


Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.