The Nvidia Defect Forum

Just discovered this forum this morning. Very interesting and would appreciate your advice please.

I purchased my Acer Aspire 7720 which has an Nvidia G8600M graphics card from Comet in August 2008 and it failed in August 2010.
I know a bit about computers having built my own desktops previously but am less familiar with working with laptops.
From the symptoms I experienced as the computer was failing I was pretty sure that the GPU was failing so as it was out of warranty I googled "faulty G8600M" to see if it would be practical for me to replace it myself. I'm sure you all have experienced the horror at the information you discovered when looking at the google search results this bring up.

Although the laptop is out of warranty I was aware that as the fault was due to a manufacturing defect my laptop should still be repaired or replaced free of charge, so I phoned up the Comet helpline. I explained that the GPU on my laptop had failed but that from subsequent reading I had discovered that they were manufacturered with defective GPU's. The guy at Comet has helpful and polite, he said that this was what they called a "forum based fault". I said that it wasn't just forum based and that Nvidia themselves had admitted the fault and had put aside $200m profits to cover claims and repairs for faulty GPUs. I was told that if the fault was down to a manufacturing defect then I would not be charged for repair, but if it was another reason then the repair would be chargeable. I was given a job number and told to return the laptop to the store where I purchased.

I returned my laptop to Comet about three weeks ago. When I dropped it off I explained my conversation and the lady wrote on the repair form "estimate required :Yes" and words to the effect of "phone customer prior to repair with nature of fault and cost of repair if any".

Yesterday I had a voice mail message on my phone saying my laptop was ready for collection(!) so went up to Comet to collect it. The conversation went something like this....

Woman : "It's a chargeable repair, isn't it?"
Me: "I don't know"
Did no-one phone you with a quote?
No the first i've heard from you was that it was ready for collection. Is it fixed?
Yes it's had a new graphics board put in it, the repair cost is £175
Well as it's due to the graphics board failing as I suspected, this is down to a manufacturing defect so repair should be free of charge even though the laptop is out of warranty.
Did you say this when you bought it in?
Yes and when I phoned the Comet helpline. They gave me a job number and told me to bring it into the shop. I also said that if there was going to be a charge I wanted an estimate first.
Er, yes, it does say that in the notes. They should have called you to ask if you wanted to proceed.
And I wouldn't have considered paying £175 to fix a two year old laptop which is inherently defective and will fail again within the next two years.
Let me get the manager [repeats conversation again with the manager]
We'll have to get in touch with the repair centre but they're closed now until Monday so we'll phone you then.

So i'm waiting to hear from them on Monday and wanted some advice on how to proceed. My laptop is fixed, or should be, and if I get it back and it lasts another two years before going wrong i'm happy with that. So if they say there is no charge for repair and I can collect the laptop I will probably do so (unless you would strongly advise against this).
I'm more concerned if they say I have to pay £175 (or any other figure) before I can get my laptop back. Can they legally do this? Do I have a right to tell them that it is my property and they have to give it back to me? It does have my personal documents and photographs etc on the hard drives after all.
What I really don't want to do is have to pay the £175 and pursue the refund of this through small claims court, although if I have to I will.

Any advise would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Ant

Hello Ant and welcome to our forum.

Sorry to hear of the problems you have been experiencing with your laptop.



What absolute baloney!

Comet simply have no idea do they? Either they are living on a different planet to you and I or they are being purposefully stupid!

How on earth can the problems you describe and the Nvidiia defect be a "forum based fault"? It is my opinion they say things like this in order for you to drop the matter and either pay them an exorbitant amount of money to repair your laptop or that you just give up and throw the laptop away.

You should completely ignore all that Comet tell you. They have absolutely no idea and all they do is talk rubbish. You don't need to just take my word for it either, just have a look through some of the Comet posts in this forum.



The latest figure on the amount of compensation that Nvidia have so far paid out is in excess of $475 million (£294 million) so you can see, this is most certainly not a "forum based fault"

This figure will grow considerably over the coming months as the number of failures starts to rise exponentially.



I always advise to NEVER EVER give your laptop to Comet to check first. After six months of ownership of the laptop there became what is known as the "reverse burden of proof". This means that it is up to you, the customer, to prove to Comet that your laptop is inherently defective. It is not for Comet to prove this on your behalf as it is very doubtful that they will. Their opinion is neither independent nor unbiased.



Well, that says it all doesn't it?

I will re-quote them in case you missed it:-



So, my reasoning for not sending your laptop to Comet first was correct.

The fault was indeed down to the inherent defect in the GPU but did they tell you this? No they didn't!

Morally, should they have charged you for repairing an inherently defective laptop that they sold you? No they should not!

Did they purposefully and totally disregard your request not to repair the laptop because they knew you could potentially make a claim against they? Probably!



First of all under no circumstances should you pay Comet a single penny.

You should tell them that you want your old mainboard back in the laptop and you want the laptop back as it was and as they were instructed to do.

You should tell them that you are not interested in a repair as repairs are unreliable and prone to failure.

Under no circumstances can they charge you and what they may do is say "as a gesture of goodwill we will not charge you".

Well, in my opinion this is not good enough as they have, in effect, hoodwinked you into a repair.

This is the very reason why I say that one should not let Comet inspect the laptop prior to an independent inspection.

It is up to you at the end of the day Ant as to what you would be happy with. If you would be happy to collect the laptop with nothing to pay then great, at least it didn't cost you anything.

But if they try it on and try charging you for an unrequested repair then you should stick to your guns and tell them that you want the old mainboard replaced in your laptop without further delay.



Yes you can. You can tell them that they had no instructions or authorisation from you to proceed with a repair and so as such they have breached your rights.

What I think is absolutely disgusting is that they had a duty to correctly inform you of the reasons for the failure of your laptop. They didn't. What they did do is to try an charge you for a repair that legally they were not entitled to charge.

If it was me that they had done it to their feet would not have touched the floor before I had them in court.

Stand your ground Ant. Be polite but firm and tell them exactly what you want.

I apologise if I appeared to be having a bit of a rant in my reply, but Comet really do annoy me when I hear of the garbage that comes out of their staff's mouths.

If you need any help or advice then please let me know.

Good luck and best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

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Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.

Thanks. Will let you know how I get on.

No great surprise. When Comet failed to phone me today I eventually got in touch with them. Eventually got a call back saying that the repair was chargeable. The guy also said something about the parts being at 30% discount on the normal price but as I'd already decided I was paying nothing I didn't pay much attention to that part. Confirmed that if I turned up at the shop they would not be prepared to give me the laptop back, and confirmed that it was a member of store management who I was speaking to. Looks like i'll have a battle on my hands.
Sending off a letter to Comet....

"Dear Sir/Madam,

I purchased an ACER Aspire 7720G.004 laptop on 20.07.08. On 13.09.10 my laptop failed irrecoverably and from the symptoms I experienced I suspected this was due to the failure of the GPU due to a manufacturing defect commonly known as the 'Nvidia defect'. I will not describe the defect in this letter, although a detailed description can be found at http://www.nvidiadefect.com. Comet Group PLC are well aware of this defect as there are dozens of documented successful claims against Comet for this defect (usually settled out of court) which can also be found on this website.
If further clarification is needed your own Trading Standards Manager, David Beaumont, should be consulted as he has been involved in many of these cases and is well aware of the defect.

I contacted the Comet telephone helpline. Although my laptop was over two years old I was aware that if the failure was due to a manufacturing defect then under the Sales of Goods Act a claim could be made within 6 years of the date of purchase irrespective of the fact that any warranty had expired. I explained all the above points to the person on the helpline. I was given a job number xxxxxxx and told to return the laptop to the store from which I purchased it.

I returned the laptop later the same day to the Comet store in xxxxx. I explained all of the above again, and the assistant clearly noted on the repair form that if the repair was chargeable then I should be contacted first before any work was carried out and amended the 'Estimate Required?' field to YES.

On 24.09.10 I received a voice mail message to advise that my laptop was available for collection. Upon visiting the store I was told that a new graphics board had been fitted in the laptop and it was a chargeable repair for which I was required to pay £175. This is obviously totally unacceptable for a number of reasons :-
- Comet had no instructions or authorisation to proceed with a repair and so as such have breached my rights.

- As the fault was clearly due to the inherent defect in the GPU then the repair which has been carried out without prior authorisation is the responsibility of Comet and should be free of charge.

- To the best of my knowledge Nvidia has never manufactured replacement parts which were free of this inherent defect so the replacement parts installed will also suffer from the same defect and are likely to fail prematurely. Although I was not aware of this fact when I brought the laptop in for repair, a professional computer technician should have known this and the laptop deemed irreparable if no permanent good repair was possible. If Comet can and will provide written evidence of the part numbers used in the repair and guarantee in writing that these parts are free from the Nvidia defect I would be happy to withdraw this point.

- The repair is likely to have incorporated a BIOS update for the graphics board which attempts to solve the problem by altering the laptops fan to be on continually to reduce the internal temperature. This is deemed to be a workaround rather than a fix and has the negative impact of permanent increased noise from the laptop and decreased battery life. Again if such a BIOS update has not been carried out I will withdraw this point.

- By replacing the graphics board without prior authorisation from myself I have been deprived of my right to obtain an independent engineers report on the laptop which under normal circumstances Comet may have required as proof of an 'inherent defect' due to the reverse burden of proof in such a situation. I must therefore assume hereafter that the Nvidia defect was the cause of failure. This is almost certainly true given the nature of the repair carried out. If Comet would like to reinstall the defective GPU board back into the laptop within the next 14 days and return it to me then I would be happy to obtain such a report but I would suggest this is not in the best interest of either party.

I have been advised by xxxx, a member of store management at the store where I purchased and returned the laptop that Comet will not return my laptop to me until I pay the repair charge. I believe this is unlawful. At the moment if Comet wish to allow me to collect the laptop without incurring any charges then I will accept the laptop, and I believe I would be acting very reasonably in doing so given the likelihood of future failure. However I would like to make it clear that in accepting the return of the laptop I would be accepting it on a 'see how it goes' basis and I would not be accepting the free repair as a gesture of goodwill. Nor would I accept any short term warranty offered for the repair. If failure due to the Nvidia defect should occur again during what would be considered to be the lifespan of the laptop (before 20.07.13) then it will still be the responsibility of Comet Group PLC to contribute to the replacement cost of the product allowing for the age of the laptop in accordance with English law.

My generous offer to accept the free repair of the laptop remains open for 14 days from the date of this letter, but in the mean time I am being seriously inconvenienced by the lack of a home computer. Please contact me with a decision within the next 14 days. The only alternatives are to either return the laptop to me without charges, or to re-place the defective graphics board in the machine in order for me to obtain an engineers report from Lapcure. If Comet do not contact me within this time I will have no option but to purchase a replacement computer. Should this prove necessary I will write again to advise you of my intention to begin legal proceedings to recover the original purchase price of the defective laptop.

Yours sincerely"


I know this is contrary to your original advice Paul, and you think I would be better served getting the faulty laptop back from them which would probably end up going down the small claims route. I don't have much spare time and could do without the hassle which is why i'm seeing if I can push them down the other route (if the repair lasts another two years i'd be quite happy). If I do end up having to get the faulty laptop back and go down the claim route then i'm more than willing to do so, especially seeing the success stories of other members.
Cheers
Ant

Hello Ant,



WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

The repair they performed was UNAUTHORISED and so they cannot charge you.

Besides that, in all likelihood the board they removed was inherently defective, which is partly evidenced by the fact that they diagnosed the fault as graphics related and they replaced the board.

I then went on to read the letter you are sending them and would like to congratulate you on a very well written letter.

The only thing I would say is to change it from fourteen days to seven. You need to keep them to a tight timetable and you want to control things. Otherwise they have the opportunity of making you wait for longer than is necessary.

Comet now have, like you correctly stated, 2 options. Find your old board that they removed without your consent (which is highly unlikely as it is either in a bin or has been sent for rework to be used again as a "refurb") and replace it in your laptop returning the laptop to you in its original state.

Or

Waiving their ridiculous repair charge and returning the laptop to you in a working condition.

Their only real option is option 2 as they cannot enforce their repair charge when no authorisation from you was given in order fro them to proceed.

Your letter says it all, but I would reduce the 14 days down to 7.

Any questions please let me know.

Best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

_________________
=======================================================
Calculate the minimum refund that you would be entitled to.
FAQ's
Why you should not accept a repair
Links to evidence
What is the Nvidia Defect?
Step by step help to getting a refund
Do you need an engineers report?
=======================================================

If you like what you see on this forum and would like to help then please post links to this forum in other forums or blogs. The more people we can help the better.


Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.

Thanks Paul. One of the limitations of not having a computer (on my iPhone now) was that I had to get the letter typed up and sent from my parents house earlier so unfortunately couldn't wait for your opinion before sending. Funnily enough I originally put seven days but changed it to fourteen thinking I would be seen to have been reasonable should it eventually end up in court. Let's just hope they don't take two weeks to respond.

Common sense prevailed today and I received a phone call from a lady who said she was from the Directors Office at Comet.
She apologised for the problems I'd had with my computer and the service i'd received from Comet, and said that my repaired computer could be collected with no charges to pay. For me that's a

I'm on the laptop now and it seems to be working fine but there is one interesting point of note.
My returned laptop now has an ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2300 graphics card in it!
The card before was a Geforce 8400m GS 256mb. (Note 8600, my letter was wrong but I didn't have the laptop to check before.) The old defective graphics board was returned with the laptop and the code on the chip is G86-630-A2 which I think confirms this.
The old graphics board was returned in a static shield bag which I am guessing is the bag which the new graphics board came in. It has the following info on the bag :-
Item code 55.AHG02.001M 256MB W/O HDCP
PO number 0000508089
Receipt date 24/06/2010
Description VGA board M71

The repair sheet lists the job notes as £126.50 parts + £50 labour = £176.50 to pay, which obviously I didn't have to pay. Would that price have been about right for this graphics card?

Preliminary reading would lead me to believe this is an entry level card which may be less powerful than the card removed(?) but to be honest I don't use the laptop for gaming so as long as I can browse the internet and do my ebaying i'm happy to have a working laptop back. Also as the replacement is not an Nvidia card I don't have to worry about the Nvidia defect in the future. I was a bit surprised that my laptop now has a completely different card in it and just wondered your opinion on this. I'm surprised other laptop manufacturers aren't offering repairs using ATI cards.

Thanks

Ant

Hello Ant,

Well, whilst you may be happy with the outcome I think what they have done is absolutely scandalous.

Your laptop did indeed have the Nvidia 8400 GPU, the G86-630-A2 is the code for the 8400, not sure why they numbered it that way but it is definitely the 8400.

What has really annoyed me is that they did this without consulting with you first. They really should have contacted you and stated that the repair they were doing was in effect a downgrade and they should have then asked you if this would be acceptable.

To me this just looks like they are trying to repair these laptops by whichever methods in order to stave off having to give a refund. In other words they seem to be acting in their own best interests rather than yours.

I appreciate that you are happy with the laptop now, but is this because of frustration or is it because you just want a quick settlement.

Like yourself I am not into games or gaming but if I purchased a laptop with an Nvidia GPU in it (which, when it works correctly is far superior to the ATI) then that is what I would expect to be on the mainboard of any repair they may offer.

They obviously have no confidence in the boards containing the Nvidia GPU otherwise why didn't they use one?

To do what they have done is, in my opinion, underhand and there should have been disclosure prior to any work being undertaken.

You would still be well within your rights to reject the repair and insist on a refund or replacement as your laptop is now not what it was.

Just my opinion there Ant, hope you don't mind me saying that.

Best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

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If you like what you see on this forum and would like to help then please post links to this forum in other forums or blogs. The more people we can help the better.


Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.

Hi Paul,

I totally agree with and respect your opinion.
Three weeks ago I didn't even know the Nvidia defect existed, I just had a knackered laptop.
Now I have a working laptop, defect free and fingers crossed it will last a couple more years.
What has happened will put me off buying from Comet, and will put me off buying laptops with Nvidia cards in them.
Whilst Comet have 'got out of jail free' with a solution which has saved them a refund or exchange, it's also saved me having to pursue them through the small claims court to force their hand. I'd imagine many of the people on this forum who've had success making a county court claim against retailers would still admit it was a stressful and time consuming experience they'd rather have avoided.
If my laptop subsequently dies in a few months I may be back on here asking for further advice, but otherwise thanks very much for the advice you've given thus far.

Regards

Ant

ps Actually, who am I trying to kid, i'll still be checking back on this forum every week to see how everyone else is doing against these deplorable retailers. This has become my new favourite website.

Hello Ant,



Well, fingers crossed all should be ok for your now and I hope you get years of unhindered use out of it.

You are more than welcome for the help, that is what I am here for.



Thanks for that Ant, much appreciated.

Good luck for the future and best wishes

Paul
The Admin Team

_________________
=======================================================
Calculate the minimum refund that you would be entitled to.
FAQ's
Why you should not accept a repair
Links to evidence
What is the Nvidia Defect?
Step by step help to getting a refund
Do you need an engineers report?
=======================================================

If you like what you see on this forum and would like to help then please post links to this forum in other forums or blogs. The more people we can help the better.


Please note that I am not legally qualified and I only offer my own personal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice for formal clarification of advice I give.